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backwatergallery
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Posts: 1115

My pestilent curiosity turned toward Czech and European long-line nymphing a while back.  Thinking it might help with those riffle feeding carp.  Soon I wanted a longer rod, even longer than the 10' rods commonly used, because we're not dealing with small trout water.  I began looking at tenkara rods, but they're not strong enough for that type of nymphing, or fighting carp, which led me through a strange Asian underworld of keiryu, seiryu, ayu and finally herabuna rods.  I have a few on order, from a Hong Kong distributor, but since then I've found out Berkeley makes these rods as well...

 

Then I stumbled across this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNbgC2VNXuo

 

Granted the music is completely wrong - this is typical herabuna fishing - very similar to European pole fishing, the first thing on the hook looks like cooked rice or squished bread then the usual ball of crumbly dough, but the first fish he catches isn't a herabuna, or even Siamese carp, it's a bighead and later a silver carp.  Knowing that's possible changes the way I look at these fish - I'm not sure how effective this would be in large areas such as below Red Rock dam, or in Lake Rathbun, but I bet it would work on the small pools of the Tommy Grand, or the quiet waters below wingdams on the Missouri so packed with schools of silvers.  Granted we've left the world of fly fishing for the moment, but those silvers jump, you know, and after catching one for lunch switch to a nymph rig move to the head of the pool and target common carp, or black and smallmouth buffalo or goldeye. 

March 23, 2015 at 11:52 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Huntnpack
Member
Posts: 150
Wow. If IIRC. Ayu rods a serious investment. Do plan on swinging your carp into your landing net like Ayu fishermen? ;) If so please get plenty of video.
March 24, 2015 at 12:06 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Huntnpack
Member
Posts: 150
Curiosity got the best of me. It looks like Ayu rods are more affordable than I thought. Carp on them does sound like a blast. PS pardon my grammar in the previous post (posting from a phone late at night must be challenging)
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March 24, 2015 at 11:44 AM Flag Quote & Reply

creekychub
Member
Posts: 92

I've been hearing some interesting things about people catching silvers on small chartruese clousers the past season, then I stumbled across this article..  There is a spot south of Omaha that is loaded with bigheads and silvers in the summer. I'm going to try drifting a few small chartruese damsel nymphs (maybe under a small indicator) and see what happens.

March 24, 2015 at 12:43 PM Flag Quote & Reply

backwatergallery
Administrator
Posts: 1115

Creekychub - Whoa! mind blown!  Those roughfish.com guys have always been well ahead of the curve, I haven't been on that site in years - looks like I better start checking it again.  I've tried drifting various flies for Asian carp, egg patterns, nymphs, I've probably even tried algae blob flies -  I have some flies like that in one of my fly boxes - must have tried them on something at some point. However,  I almost never use an indicator so that may be an important component? Notice how the author described the first bighead moving up to take his fly - that's probably important - not in the school, but just above it?  There was a school of silvers below every wingdam in the DeSoto bend/Blair area when I was out there a couple years ago for grass carp in late summer.

 

Huntnpack - I got the rods from banggood.com (sounds like an escort service, but it's actually a wholesale distributor).  I spent $55 for 4 rods, the 2 fiberglass rods were $7 or $8 something, and the 2 graphite rods were $15-20 something.  Shipping from Hong Kong was free. They range from 10'9" to 11'6" although both shorter and much longer models were available.  The lightest weighs 3 oz. and the others are 4 oz. - the gram weights given on their website weren't super accurate, it sounded like they would weigh as much as my Shakespeare Durango crappie pole, but they are much lighter.  The actions range from very tip flex, fast action, to mid flex, slow action, but none are parabolic floppy like the telescoping crappie poles we're all familiar with.  I think the 2 fiberglass rods (while they could probably work for European style nymphing where there is a water load) will end up being crappie rods just nicer, more accurate and lighter than what you can get locally.  The 2 carbon fiber rods have real potential the one (with a micro fine tip but half inch diameter butt dampens faster than the fastest fly rod I own ( a sassy little 6' 3 wt.) the other has a little thicker tip and more slender butt and is comparable to a 5 wt. 9' fly rod.  These have fly fishing potential  - there seems to be some casting energy lost at the lillian  so it may take some tinkering - I'll keep you posted...

March 25, 2015 at 2:22 AM Flag Quote & Reply

backwatergallery
Administrator
Posts: 1115

P.S. I  didn't notice any grammar errors in your first post.  Look how many times I use (or misuse) the hyphen - probably drives Chad nuts, but I can't help it - I talk like that too.

March 25, 2015 at 2:31 AM Flag Quote & Reply

FishnDave
Member
Posts: 1144

Thanks for posting a link to that article, Creekychub.  That's pretty cool they can be caught with some consistency!  Their mouths look a lot like a Bigmouth Buffalo mouth.  Clearly at least some appear to be eating their flies/lures.

Back before I switched to predominantly flyfishing gear, I recall a day where I caught 4 buffalo in the mouth on small crappie tube jigs.  I could see small pods of buffalo forming circles with their mouths all facing the middle.  The water was somewhat murky, but I could see the white rings of their mouths opening.  Looked like the bottom of shiny aluminum pop cans in the water.  I was basically casting my lure into their open mouths.  I wonder if something similar may also be happening with some of these asian carp catches...where the lures are just finding their way into the open mouth of the asian carp?

March 25, 2015 at 10:47 AM Flag Quote & Reply

creekychub
Member
Posts: 92

FishnDave - A hook finding its way into a fish's mouth is a total possibility, I've hauled in a few paddlefish this way. And these carp certainly have a big enough mouth to do that. In that case, a light, easily sucked in fly might be the ticket.


My hypothesis is more along the lines of shad fishing, or at least that's what I hope this could turn into.  Maybe there is some sort of instinct in these asian carp to strike a small bright colored fly just like Hickory and American Shad on the east coast.  Maybe the key is presenting the fly in the right way to get some sort of reaction? or Maybe I just have wishful (or delusional) thinking ... I'm still going to give it the old college try :D

March 25, 2015 at 2:47 PM Flag Quote & Reply

FishnDave
Member
Posts: 1144

Definitely!

From the article, there was a visible reaction and take by at least one fish.  That is a GOOD sign!   I do wonder if a fish that has evolved to filter microscopic organisms from the water would really still have a reaction to strike a visible object?

Whatever....I want to believe these fish will strike flies, so I am going to do exactly that.  :)  

And who knows, maybe in their new non-native environments, they will alter their feeding behaviors?  ...Like Grass Carp seem to be doing in the MIssouri River, where they are striking flies that look like nymphs, crayfish, etc.

People are learning to catch all kinds of fish on flies that didn't seem possible to catch on lures....mullet, smallmouth buffalo, etc.  Heck, I even caught some Gizzard Shad in the mouth on flies!

March 26, 2015 at 10:32 AM Flag Quote & Reply

backwatergallery
Administrator
Posts: 1115

I don't think they can alter their feeding behavior much because of their unusual anatomy.  There's no real stomach and no throat.  The "basket" their gill rakers funnel into drains through a very narrow, straw-like gizzard where 2 small, serrated, bony plates rub against each other, the rest is just intestine.  So I don't think they swallow, or eat so much as drink their food.

 

Probably "strike" should be replaced with "slurp".  I think the comparison to bigmouth buffalo, paddlefish, and gizzard shad might be on the right track - the fish are gulping water, the fly is small, dead drifting, and non threatening so it gets sucked in with everything else.  The green bucktail fly in the article is larger than anything I've ever cast to a school of bigheads so as counter intuitive as it seems bigger might be better.  The other thing the article said was "drifting chartreuse jigs through the school" but reading the roughfish.com web page and looking closely at the photos shows they are actually drifting chartreuse (and again fairly large) twister tail grubs on J-hooks attached to the mainline on droppers.  That presentation would look like limp, semi liquid, algae blobs.  So I'm thinking a largish but, soft, fuzzy, bright green - something that looks like a big, mushy, amorphous, milk shake consistency, algae blob?

March 27, 2015 at 12:51 AM Flag Quote & Reply

backwatergallery
Administrator
Posts: 1115

These fixed line rods will work for Czech nymphing and longer line techniques with a similar water load, but I also found a way to attach fly line without losing power at the lillian, it involves welding a loop in the fly line - I'll go into more detail if anyone says they're interested. This gives enough mass for aerial loading with dry flies, etc.

March 30, 2015 at 12:57 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jason
Member
Posts: 99

Backwater,

I have a tenkara rod from tenkara USA but I have not fished for carp with it yet because I was sure it would break if I hooked into one. After reading this I am interested in getting a fixed line rod to chase carp with. I was wondering if you could recommend a model as I saw that Banggood has several different ones. I am interested in the method you used to attach the fly line to the Lillian.

April 29, 2015 at 3:12 PM Flag Quote & Reply

backwatergallery
Administrator
Posts: 1115

There is definitely a lot lost in translation on their website the weights and lengths given aren't always accurate, and, of course, there are dedicated fishing sites with up market products and better information, but SKU124909 the 3.6 m. model will work for carp.  I replaced the thread "handle" and butt cap which weren't glued on very well and also the end cap, but the rod itself will land an 8 lb. carp on 8 lb. tippet, beyond that I haven't tested yet.  It's fiberglass, the action is "slow", but not "parabolic" like those fiberglass panfish poles weighing twice as much.  The 3.6 can be comfortably cast with one hand, but I think going to a 4.5 m. model would require a 2 handed grip just to manage such a long instrument and because of the "swing weight".

 

Sku124880 the 3.6m model is a lot of fun to catch panfish on it weighs only 3 oz. but measures 11ft. 6 in. the action is comparable to a 9 ft. fly rod - would be great for Czech nymphing.  It might work for carp, but I'm afraid of bending or failure in the butt section because it is made of a lightweight metal alloy not carbon fiber like the rest of the rod. So something structured similar to 880 but with a carbon fiber butt section might be worth investigating?

 

To attach PVC fly line I used the front tapers and various lengths of the heads of various old fly lines (depending on the structure of the rod I intended to use it on) then welded a loop in the "head" or thick end of the fly line  - this takes a heat gun and a certain type of shrink tubing - I can't remember the exact type, but Dale knows what it is. I can send you some, but it would also work to make a loop, wrap it tightly with tying thread and coat it with head cement or Goop waterproof adhesive.

 

Once a solid loop is made pass a bit of fly line through the loop to form a second loop, put the lillian through this and pull tight.  You will want a large (double overhand) lillian knot.  Work the fly line toward the tip of the rod so there is as little loose lillian cord between the fly line and rod tip as possible then cinch it all tight by pulling on the lillian knot (not by pulling the fly line and rod tip away from each other).

April 30, 2015 at 2:31 AM Flag Quote & Reply

Jason
Member
Posts: 99

Thank you for the recommendations. I think I have a piece of heat shrink tube that I got at a Central Iowa Fly fishers meeting last year when they did a demonstration on welded loops. In fact, I think Dale was there with a heat gun. I will give it a shot and see how it goes. 

April 30, 2015 at 9:23 AM Flag Quote & Reply

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